Civil demand letter target Ask a Free Question Dec 8, 2019 · I just received my third civil demand letter from target today. A civil demand letter seeks compensation for civil penalties associated with shoplifting. If you don't pay the demand, the store has the legal right to go to court and obtain a judgment against you. When a person is caught shoplifting, the store can 1) send them a civil demand letter, 2) seek to prosecute them criminally, or 3) both. The latter punishes an offender for the crime. What is a target letter, and how is a target letter delivered? What does a target letter look like? Why do prosecutors send target letters? Customer: I got caught shoplifting at target few days ago. Oct 11, 2022 · I was stopped for shoplifting over 3 months ago at target. They may not. Copy and paste to read my legal guide: Civil Demand Letters from Target: After a shoplifting incident, many individuals receive a demand letter, typically requesting amounts between $250 to $500. My name was cleared with Target. Should I be worried? I have checked the court site but no summons on file for me Received a civil demand letter to pay $500 for shoplifting at Target. Jul 5, 2019 · I have a friend that was caught at Target stores in Florida shoplifting $15. If you pay the demand, the matter is settled. California law allows a merchant to demand up to $500 following a theft incident. Because theft is both a civil offense and a criminal one, big box stores like Target will often seek a civil penalty from people accused of shoplifting rather than filing a police report. Civil Demand We resolve claims and recover money for you from shoplifters, dishonest employees and others. ” This type of letter often demands that you pay far more than the cost of the item you attempted to steal or you could face criminal charges or a suit in small claims court. Apr 2, 2023 · In exchange for participating, she was assured that her record would be cleared and she was not arrested. Disclaimer Jul 16, 2015 · Do I need to pay my civil demand letter from target? Post your question and get advice from multiple lawyers. The client often believes that if he or she pays the civil demand the criminal case will not be filed. The letter states that this is a civil demand and I am liable for the amount of $250 in accordance with California Penal Code 459. Dec 3, 2019 · Read 2 Answers from lawyers to Caught shoplifting $360 of games at California Target, no charges but was given a civil demand letter can I ignore it? - California Criminal Law Questions & Answers - Justia Ask A Lawyer Apr 18, 2023 · Up to 15% cash back received a civil demand letter to pay $500 for shoplifting at target. In order for you to owe them something they would have to sue you and win. The law firms usually send a few more letters, each more threatening than the last, until they figure out they are wasting stamps and give up. Please turn off your ad blocker. Jul 18, 2016 · You dodged a bullet. No one can tell you whether the store will send a civil demand letter. Customer: Received a civil demand letter to pay $500 for shoplifting at Target. 5 and 490. As a practical matter it is highly unlikely they will sue you over it. Many stores will send out civil demand letters because they don't cost much to write and send. Dec 21, 2018 · I was told I was going to get civil demand letter within 7-10days. Since, It was my first offense. I just turned 18 and I shoplifted <$100 from a local Target and was caught. Feb 10, 2025 · Understand civil demand letters, your rights, and how to respond. Sep 26, 2023 · A civil demand letter will offer a consequence: if you don’t pay the demanded sum, then the retailer will file a civil lawsuit against you. I got caught shop lifting in 2018 at target as a reckless 14 yo, today i was sent a letter from pra law firm saying to pay them $300 if not, target may file a law suit. a penalty not to exceed the greater of five times the retail See relevant content for mymassachusettsdefenselawyer. May 2, 2025 · 2025 Update: Navigating the complexities of a civil demand letter. On the day of the incident I took about $47 worth of stuff and was taken to the back to sign paper and they let me go telling me I would just need to pay. Asen's in NY, you're in WI. They need to take you to court if you refuse to pay because you have no legal obligation to pay under General Obligations 11-105 unless they sue you. The law allows victims of shoplifters to seek a civil judgment against the thieves. The law offices of Michael Ira Asen, together with Ron Halpern is counsel for this civil demand. " Hopefully, a lesson learned. It does look fishy. Generally, no, you should not pay the demand. Jul 5, 2018 · Given that the court fine and Macy’s civil demand were for the same sum ($500), my client’s confusion was understandable. Kohl's would have to seek a civil judgement through due process. They gave me a civil demand notice and told me that the police was notified but they never showed up at the store Lawyer's Assistant: I understand that you were caught shoplifting at Target and received a civil demand notice. Target Shoplifting Policy – Preventative Measures Dec 20, 2019 · Appeals Bankruptcy & Debt Business Car Accidents Child Custody Child Support Civil Rights Consumer Protection Contracts and Agreements Criminal Defense Debt Collection Divorce and Separation Domestic Violence DUI and DWI Elder Law Employment and Labor Estate Planning Education Family Federal Crime Foreclosure General Practice Immigration Mar 22, 2018 · When a person is caught shoplifting, the store can 1) send them a civil demand letter, 2) seek to prosecute them criminally, or 3) both. Nov 26, 2022 · I received a letter from a law firm about the civil claim against me and warned that if I do not pay them $300 Target may move forward with civil damages against me. The police weren’t called but I got sent a civil demand letter for $350. It states that I have 21 days to make payment and I have a right to contest my liability in Title: civil demand letter - michael ira asen. North Carolina General Statute 1-538. letter is supplied. However target said if he doesnt pay they can get a A demand letter is a formal and official document used to address unresolved issues with a party or individual. I received a letter from a law firm 1 week after the incident stating that they represent Target Corporation. I was also wondering if they can ever enter that Target again, even with different clothing, etc. Jan 14, 2024 · Community Guideline Update. However, some companies may exploit this, issuing letters even without verifiable losses. Even if you draft a demand letter yourself, it's advisable to have it reviewed by a lawyer to ensure it includes all necessary details and follows the appropriate legal format. Includes sample letters to guide you. Jan 27, 2020 · This letter is a demand that you pay $500 in satisfaction of this civil claim within twenty one days of this letter. I admitted my fault and signed a letter confessing my crime and a letter banning me from the property. Mar 15, 2021 · I was involved in a shoplifting incident at Target in January 2020. Many attorneys tell their clients not to pay the civil demand since stores rarely file a lawsuit for the money. May 16, 2022 · The most immediate risk when you ignore a civil demand letter is increasing the damages beyond what the original letter alleges. It is a demand for money. That said, and again in Florida, whether or not you pay is both a civil and a personal, not a criminal defense, related question. The chances of Target actually filing a lawsuit are so remote as to not even deserve discussion. May 2, 2025 · A civil demand letter is a written notice sent by a plaintiff to a defendant demanding payment or other actions to resolve a legal claim or dispute. I did not end up leaving with it. Nov 5, 2018 · I was caught shoplifting at target as a minor (16 years old) I received a civil demand letter do I have to pay the $500 fine? At the age of 16 me and my friend we were both caught shoplifting. This letter is not a criminal charge; it’s a civil claim designed to recover losses related to the alleged theft, including the cost of security personnel, investigation, and any Mar 21, 2014 · What you received is known as a "Civil Demand Letter". Jul 26, 2017 · Some lawyers on this site say ignore the letters because it is too costly to file a law suit for the little amount they can recoup, and other lawyers on this site say pay the demand because there is always a chance that criminal charges can be filed. 5, which states that you may be sued in small claims court for between $50 and $500 if you. Although the likelihood of an indictment is high, it is not An intimidating letter will be addressed to our client, often from a law firm, and demand payment within ten days of up to $500 and if payment is not received before this deadline, the lawyer vows to file a lawsuit. Jun 28, 2018 · This is not a fine. This is the first time I've been caught. Jun 22, 2017 · It's not a "fine" - it's a civil demand letter. I have seen clients who believed paying the civil demand would exempt them from court for their shoplifting Penal Code 484 charges, resulting in arrest warrants when they May 25, 2019 · 18 years old and caught shoplifting (the first and last time I will ever steal) a single product worth $5. Many attorneys advise their clients to disregard any civil demand letter---except that portion that bans you. The letters stopped in April. 00 up to $1,000. These letters typically arise from alleged shoplifting or minor offenses and carry financial implications. Dec 12, 2014 · Civil demand letter from target hasn't arrived?! I'm not sure where you heard they will take you to court. When brought into the security room I got scared by the security guard and confessed to stealing twice before of the same merchandise but of less value. C. Target, a prominent national retailer, operates under established legal protocols. Ask a Free Question Jul 18, 2016 · You dodged a bullet. If you are accused of shoplifting in Indiana from a store such as Wal-Mart, Target or Meijer, you may receive a civil demand letter. A communication originating from Target’s legal department carries the implied authority of the corporation and signifies a formalized process for addressing Jul 26, 2017 · Some lawyers on this site say ignore the letters because it is too costly to file a law suit for the little amount they can recoup, and other lawyers on this site say pay the demand because there is always a chance that criminal charges can be filed. The letters will continue to come and will continue to sound increasingly dire, but if you have the stamina to ignore them they will eventually stop. Shoplifting and Theft Civil Demand Letters. I was taken to a room where they asked me to return the items, took my id and picture, I signed a form that acknowledged my shoplifting (i think), a Sometimes they say you have to pay a fine. Photo of me and license taken. Dec 1, 2022 · Is a Civil Demand Letter in This Circumstance Lawful? Yes, it is. I ignored them, as directed by lawyers here and whom I consulted in my home state. Browse by Popular Cities: Atlanta, GA There is NO judgement against the recipient of the demand letter. Civil demand letters are often sent from law firms representing large retailers to individuals accused or convicted of theft. They could follow up by filing a civil lawsuit, or by pursuing criminal charges. Jan 5, 2013 · I agree with the civil demand (those letters you will categorically get from Target) advice you have already received. No police were called. The demand letter may relate to an underlying contract, and many business-to-business agreements will contain penalty provisions increasing the amounts owed. 00, a lawsuit which is not yet and which may never actually be filed. They let me go and said they cancelled there call Nate | Over 10 years of criminal defense practice. Jul 12, 2024 · The company is not technically allowed to press charges against people who are caught stealing. Jul 6, 2017 · Getting a civil demand letter doesn't affect whether the police file charges. If they do get the letter, what happens if they don't pay? They can be pursued criminally. Web often, civil demand letters cite california penal code section 490. What should I expect next? No civil demand letter has come to my address since. They let me go and said they cancelled there call to the police. May 2, 2021 · As required by our updated Community Guidelines, by posting content on Avvo, attorneys assert that their submissions are original and not generated by an automated tool, such as artificial intelligence (AI). The security claimed to have us on camera but did not show us, we both emptied our bags and I had $178 dollars worth of target merchandise. The company can then issue a civil demand letter asking for monetary compensation for the items stolen. Paying or not paying the civil demand will have no effect on any criminal actions which might be brought against you. I just got the letter today on March 4th 2022. If my friend ignores a CIVIL demand. This was in 2016. If you received a civil demand target letter, it means that there is no question as to whether the government is coming after you. Target does not send "court letters" to shoplifters. Law firms typically target young adults , likely because they are more easily intimidated. Ohio Revised Code section 2307. Jan 25, 2025 · The significance of Target Corporation as the sender of a civil demand letter holds substantial weight. Jul 28, 2021 · So about 3 years ago I was caught shoplifting at at target for about 75$ with of goods i ignored the first letter I got from them since I know I don’t have to pay for a civil demand letter but now that’s it’s been 3 years then sent me another letter asking for 300$ I was young and made dumb choices. May 20, 2019 · I got civil demand letter from Michael ira asen, P. They may. However, this is not true We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. Jul 23, 2017 · I was caught shoplifting about $50 of merchandise at target. No charges came of it, but I received 3 civil demand letters over the course of 3 months, starting in February 2020. 00. The consensus is that you should IGNORE that letter. We are committed to maintaining the integrity and quality of the content posted by our legal community on our platforms. States have both civil and criminal shoplifting statutes. Jul 25, 2019 · Should I pay a civil action/demand letter? I had been caught shoplifting by a security officer a few weeks ago at Target and I just received a civil Apr 22, 2023 · Not sure what to do about this civil demand letter? Lawyers by Location . This letter demands that she pay the civil claim in 10 days or the merchant may file a lawsuit against her in a court. What is a Civil Demand Target Letter? demand target. to pay $500 within 21 days. Aug 17, 2018 · I got caught shoplifting at Target for $37. Web What Is A Civil Demand. May 11, 2024 · No. If they contest this on a credit report, the agency will turn to Kohl's to provide documentation of a judgement against the accused. Instead, the store manager can file a police report. They are all bark and no bite. Browse by Popular Cities: Atlanta, GA Boston, MA Chicago, IL Dallas, TX Houston, TX Los However, I have never heard of anyone being sued by one of these outfits because they just ignored the civil demand letters. Criminal charges and a civil demand are NOT linked and have nothing to do with one another. As a rule, I advise clients to ignore these civil demand letters. Jun 11, 2021 · Can target still send me a civil demand after 2 years of incident? I was caught shoplifting two years ago at target they sent me a civil demand letter they eventually stopped 2 years later and now they are sending me a settlement offer should I pay this or not do I just ignore it and how do I get them to stop sending me these letters at my address Aug 8, 2017 · I was recently caught shoplifting from Target with an amount of $600 of merchandise. All the stuff was put back in perfect condition and no damages. This demand is separate from any criminal charges the individual might face. Mar 4, 2022 · When I was younger i tried to steal a DVD from target. You can see another target letter sample here on the Department of Justice website. It is a misconception that paying the civil demand letter will resolve criminal charges. Mar 15, 2018 · A Target employee took a picture of my drivers license before releasing my child to me. Feb 13, 2025 · Civil Demand Letters and Financial Penalties. Taken to the back to sign no trespassing paper and civil demand paper. Feb 28, 2024 · In Florida, the civil demand letter to you is essentially an offer to settle a potential civil lawsuit for $200. Aug 4, 2019 · Paying a fine will not stop Target from notifying police of your crime and not paying the fine does not mean you will be charged either. Jul 27, 2021 · Pra Law Firm Civil Demand Letter from an incident that happened 3 years ago. This is a demand for payment of a civil penalty. For Legal Help Call: (866) 588-0600 Jan 20, 2024 · A civil demand letter is not an official legal document from the court but rather a request from a retailer for compensation related to alleged shoplifting. the retail price of the merchandise if not recovered in merchantable condition up to an amount not to exceed fifteen hundred dollars; plus 2. Like all lawyers, he charges 100s per hour for his time. We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. 61 authorizes a property owner to bring a civil action against any person who damages the owner’s property or commits a theft offense involving the owner’s property. Undecided on what I should do since I'm a military dependent and we're PCSing (moving) overseas in 2weeks for 2+yrs. After completing the community service, and a few years later, she is now receiving a civil demand letter for $680. Typically, the sending party prepares it to request payment, seek settlement for a grievance, or demand corrective action for a mistake. They took my picture, had me sign two sheets of paper (although I didn’t read it because I was super anxious and my eyes were tearing up, but I think it was to acknowledge that I tried stealing from them), and was told that I was banned from that specific Target However, civil demand letters are a civil matter and unrelated to criminal charges. Jun 17, 2014 · An adult or emancipated minor who commits larceny against the property of a mercantile establishment shall be civilly liable to the operator of such establishment in an amount consisting of: 1. One for my shoplifting, taking me to court. Dec 22, 2014 · Target's attorney, the Bennett Law Group in Midvale, Utah, will most likely write you a letter demanding about $350 or $400 in a civil demand. A demand letter is a formal and official document used to address unresolved issues with a party or individual. unaware of the how much is the fine. It's now 2022 and they sent me a letter from PRA Law Firm demanding $300 to be paid after 20 days from February 21, 2022. I have to pay $10,000 or face 5 years in federal prison. Thank you. com. This civil demand is being made in accordance with California Penal Code 459. It’s a common aftermath of a shoplifting accusation, where retailers exercise their right to seek damages under state laws, separate from any criminal charges that might be pursued. What should I do? I have read that they do not follow up with these claim because it is not worth the cost. I cannot say one way or the other whether paying the demand will provide you such benefit. 2 provides for a minimum civil fine from $150. These letters are typically sent by the store or a law firm acting on their behalf. ” The other says it’s for $185, even though the merchandise sold was about $100. It is usually for $250, but if you don't pay it and they file suit to collect it, the amount will go up by the addition of court costs and attorney's fees which can easily double it. I'd avoid the Target for awhile too. Best of luck to you. The police were not called. Ask a Free Question Will they get a Civil Demand Letter from Target? We know as much as Joe and Matthew do. Letter for Damages from Target corporation can they send into collections and negativley effect his credit ? Oct 11, 2015 · In Florida, the civil demand letter to you is essentially an offer to settle a potential civil lawsuit for $200. If there is a "court letter," it will come from the court itself, or in this case, the Torrance City Prosecutor's office. When a person must file a Civil Demand Letter, studying regulations and tutorials on how to complete a form correctly and what it should include may take a lot of time and effort. Mar 30, 2016 · This letter is called a “civil demand letter. Non-payment can affect your credit, but there are procedures a company must follow to collect. Unless you signed some agreement to pay this store, you owe them nothing. The demand letter itself is not a judgement. Target Corporations sent me their second and final letter that resolves any further action. The former allows merchants to offset some of the cost of their theft insurance, surveillance systems, and security personnel. I have seen clients who believed paying the civil demand would exempt them from court for their shoplifting Penal Code 484 charges, resulting in arrest warrants when they Feb 1, 2025 · A civil demand letter is a notification from a store (or their legal representatives) to an individual suspected of shoplifting, demanding monetary compensation. The likelihood of that happening is extremely small because the store itself got the merchandise back and was not damaged. No police were involved. No cops were called. Please note that our Community Guidelines have been updated. Lawyers by Location . Police were never called to the incident. 5. 66 in itens that he didn’t get to keep. Were you detained or arrested by the store security or the These letters generally follow a similar format, whether it is an FBI target letter, or one from another agency. May 25, 2019 · 18 years old and caught shoplifting (the first and last time I will ever steal) a single product worth $5. If you ignore the letter, they have to make a choice - let it go or file a small claims case against you. I was told that I would be reviewing a civil demand letter in the mail. It's not a civil "fine" - it's a civil demand letter. In addition to criminal charges, individuals caught shoplifting may face civil penalties. I do note that in years of practice as an Orange County shoplifting attorney, handling commercial burglary defenses, and petty theft cases, that most shoplifting and civil demand letters cases involve only a handful of stores – Nordstrom’s, Costco, Walmart, Fry’s, and Target. Feb 8, 2024 · In Florida, the civil demand letter to you is essentially an offer to settle a potential civil lawsuit for $200. Post your question and get advice from multiple lawyers. Do I have to pay them? Can I ignore it? I feel terrible for stealing $130 worth total from target and they got their items back undamaged. A civil demand is not a debt and you would only have to pay it if they successfully sued you. Usually for a person without a prior criminal record or someone who has taken a small amount of merchandise, the store will only seek a civil demand. Jun 16, 2014 · It's not a civil "fine" - it's a civil demand letter. Author: u/ineedhelpehah Title: I just turned 18 and I shoplifted <$100 from a local Target Original Post: I fucked up. Original Post: Hello, has anyone ever received a civil demand letter from this person asking for $250?? Is this person legit or a scam, has anyone ever not paid it? my friend received this letter and is scared and confused. They seem to be particularly offensive. What happens if we dont pay civil demand letter. They let me go and I left the DVD there at Target. […] Aug 14, 2023 · The proper legal answer is that you are legally obligated to pay it. The county allowed me to complete 24 hours community service without going to court. May 11, 2012 · The letter you received was a “civil demand” letter oftentimes from a law firm, or a division of the store itself, that does nothing but send out these intimidating letters after a shoplifting incident, trying to get hundreds of dollars from the accused. Since theft is considered a crime of dishonesty, a conviction can result in a loss of employment and prevent future employment or housing opportunities. Fortunately, if the cops were not involved, you don't need to worry about your "record. I have residency here so I’m wondering if this will affect any of that process or if it will go on my permanent record? Jul 20, 2017 · Post your question and get advice from multiple lawyers. We are persistent problem-solvers with over 35 years of civil recovery experience turning difficult and aged cases into successful recoveries, no matter your business type or size. Customer: hi i have a question in regards ***** ***** civil demand letter sent from target from california Lawyer's Assistant: Have any charges been filed? If so, when is the next court date? Customer: there was no charges or a court date just a demand to pay 500 which i do not have Lawyer's Assistant: Have you talked to a CA lawyer about this yet? May 18, 2014 · You can talk with the lawyer you consult about whether you want to pay the civil demand letter in an effort to increase the chance that Target will not notice you further on the criminal prosecution level. You'll probably receive a "civil demand" letter from law firm on behalf of Target. If you're interested in reading the actual statute that authorizes Target (via their attorneys) to make this demand, it's Georgia Code 51-10-6. In the future, before causing us attorneys to be emailed to volunteer our time, please research your question through the question and answer for him first. If I receive a target letter, does that mean I will definitely be indicted? No. Theft 3 Theft or shoplifting charges in Washington State can be a gross misdemeanor (3rd Degree Theft) or a felony if the property in question is valued at more than $750. Jul 23, 2018 · I just got the Civil demand letter and it says: "as a result of this incident, you are liable for a civil demand in the amount of $250. If you do not pay the demand within 30 days, they can file a lawsuit against you for the $150, plus attorney's fees, plus court costs. . The letter you received is called a civil demand letter. Retailer Civil Threats to Sue: Are They Crying Wolf? It is estimated that 10% of civil demand letter recipients will, like my client, voluntarily pay the amount request out of fear of being sued. This letter is a request from the store to pay civil damages, regardless if the property was recovered. Should You Pay a Civil Demand Letter for Shoplifting? A civil demand letter is the business’s attempt to collect money from you, but usually, nothing will happen if you refuse to pay or simply ignore Feb 1, 2025 · A civil demand letter is a formal request from a business, typically a retailer, seeking monetary compensation from an individual suspected of shoplifting. Understanding your rights and obligations upon receiving such communication is crucial. Mar 24, 2018 · You have received what is known as a civil demand letter. In the context of retail theft, for example, a civil demand letter may be sent by a store to a person accused of shoplifting. When my clients get a letter, I advise them to pay it. Sep 26, 2018 · No. These demands often request payment of hundreds of dollars. A civil demand letter is a legal attempt to obtain money, but it's not one you're legally obliged to pay. That is the reason for the civil demand. Choose an area of law that your issue relates to: Appeals Bankruptcy & Debt Business Car Accidents Child Custody Child Support Civil Rights Consumer Protection Contracts and Agreements Criminal Defense Debt Collection Divorce and Separation Domestic Violence DUI and DWI Elder Law Employment and Labor Estate Planning Education Family Federal Crime Foreclosure General Practice Immigration Feb 8, 2020 · What do I do if I get a civil demand letter from target? Do I pay it or leave it be? Lawyers by Location . Laws allow businesses to recoup losses from theft. Almost a month later, I received it and the demand is for Mar 15, 2018 · I received a letter from a law firm 1 week after the incident stating that they represent Target Corporation. by the DOJ to a witness scheduled to appear before the federal Grand Jury in order to provide helpful background information about the Grand Jury. Discover essential tips for handling and responding to legal demands. I was not arrested but was given ordinance violation ticket for $200 which I paid. Nov 1, 2015 · If you have been charged with shoplifting from Walmart, Target, Kohl’s or another big box retailer you may receive a letter from an out of state lawyer demanding payment of $150. Browse by Popular Cities: Atlanta, GA Boston, MA Chicago, IL Dallas, TX Houston, TX May 11, 2021 · I was caught shoplifting in 2019 from target they didn’t involve police and made me sign on a paper and said I’ll receive a letter which i did as alot attorneys says to ignore i did and they stopped sending but I received one again on this 5th from PRA law firm saying that pay 300$ within 20 days . While you can settle this civil demand, it does not impact the criminal case against you. Demand Letter Review Cost: Apart from drafting, demand letters also need to be reviewed for accuracy and legal validity, which incurs additional costs. Nonetheless, if you find the proper Civil Demand Letter template, completing a document will stop being a challenge with a smart editor at hand. Prior to law school and just after I moved to Illinois, I actually was a ETL-AP (Executive Team Leader - Asset Protection) for Target. Mar 17, 2025 · Based on publicly available information, the letters note concerns that some firms’ employment practices, including those labeled or framed as DEI, may entail unlawful disparate treatment in terms, conditions, and privileges of employment, or unlawful limiting, segregating, and classifying based on race, sex, or other protected Nov 17, 2014 · The consensus among local attorneys in San Diego and here on AVVO is to NOT pay the civil demand. Many states allow retailers to issue a “civil demand letter” to the accused, seeking payment to cover the value of the stolen merchandise and additional damages. It's a toothless threat. Jan 12, 2025 · Receiving a civil demand letter from Target can be unsettling, often catching individuals off guard. He's not licensed in WI and is not going to hire a WI lawyer to s[end hours suing you for $200. I signed a trespassing notice and was told that a civil demand letter will be sent home. I'm sorry to hear this was so upsetting.
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